Hahaha....you just set me off to read up on :
Topography of Indian Cultural Assimilation since 11000 years ago.
Interesting facts on Indo aryan cultural homogeiny (For context, the Mahabharata and story of Kurushetra war was said to be roughly 5000 years ago).
Sources:
Ancient Persian (Zoroastrian) influence on Hinduism
Proto-Indo-Iranian religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Asuras and Daevas the Indo Iranian Connection
Hinduism and Zoroastrianism A Comparison
Ahura - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Daeva - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Indra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
4 In Zoroastrianism
The Development of Hinduism
Prelude:
You cannot contest the fact that geographically Indians & indian culture were in Iran, Afghan & lower Turkmenistan ( western areas) & as far as Burma and Cambodia in Eastern parts since 15000 years ago.
So, what is definition of indo aryan if not geography and culture?
Mahabarat itself writes mlecchas were friends from Afghan areas...and that was 5000 years ago. So, linguistic and cultural disparity apart, faiths and beliefs followed the people... which is where you see the assimilation between religious beliefs and gods pre christian times....albeit with nuances the further you go away from indian continent
Just to be precise...i am encapsulating beliefs of pre Rig veda gods within known kingdoms of India, mainly kingdoms on the whole stretch between the Sindhu and the Mediterranean Sea, starting with the kingdoms of ancient Sumeria, Mesopotamia, Assyria (Asur), Greek Anatolia, Persia as well as modern Afghanistan and Pakistan.
This summary of mine ( with quotes and excepts taken from Internet) is current accepted extent of Indian society throughout their 11000 year history and thus once you know that...you realise that topography of pre christian Indian subcontinent and their societies extends well beyond the modern day border....
With such gained knowledge of geography, you would also appreciate and understand the differing norms and culture. With that, comes knowledge of language assimilation and growth i.e. how differing cultures expounds its belief system and fundamental faith axis. Combine that knowledge with the vast time frames of different societal epochs, eras and governance....and you will understand the big picture evolution of Sanatana dharma.
For instance , even between Tamils and Sindhi area there are differing gods...not to say more about areas between Nepal and Upper & Lower Egypt....are you aware archeologist have uncovered ancient Sivan temples in Egypt, Libya, and Sudanese borders, or that Tamil elam gods like Sivan+ Mugan created the cult of Murugan (Amen+ Hop Amen in Egypt)- these gods are Tamilan god not pre Rig Veda Hindu gods & furthermore, the Sumerian gods are Tamils gods, not Hindu gods, with the difference that the Indian gods were born in India, but Sumerian god born in ancient Egypt!
All human construct. Bukan saya cakap tau....ini historical fact... bukan max mueller made or inspired. The simple reality of Faiths in conjunction with Time, across distance and age is what made these cultural assimilations powerful beliefs within those societies mentione above.
At this point, one must Remember that in Vedas only the supreme godhead or ParaBrahman is GOD. The rest are his manifestations/concept of Aham Brahmasmi. It is written in puranas and the itihisas that our reality is created (maya) and many such creations exists (multi universe or parellel universes) and more importantly each universe has its own brahma, vishnu and sivan!
Bayangkan...
Considering the history and latest archeological evidence there are 6 pre-dominant civilizations bloomed in different part of the world at a same time . considering India in oldest rest 5 are almost same age:
- India ( Sindhu Civilization)
- Egypt
- Greek & Roman
- China
- Mayan
- Sumerian ( Mesopotamia ).
The wonderful fact is they all were interconnected and exchanged their knowledge and shared this wealth of knowledge to enrich each successive generational epoch with assimilated lore.
How can I say this?
Well, even in Mahabharata, the greek and Egyptian participated in Kurushetra war and its been documented ie their numbers, days involved and names of those involved . If you do a thorough study will find a amazing similarity of the gods and their work in these civilization. You can also see the similarity in architecture / Structure / Monuments / Astro-Knowledge / Farming Knowledge and more …
Knowledge is key to freedom from simple Beliefs, religious dogma, rituals & worship...semuanya very interrelated.....though i confess, we as frail emotional humans need those structures to fortify the daily onslaughts in emotions and fear we all go through. So, yes...it was necessary for society and the fore fathers were right to have the lore.
Now, to revert.....In particular, i was reading up on Mithra (which was a religion allowed only to be practised by males) as it was intriquing to me how in Rig Veda and in Persia, same god name existed.
- Mithra was a solar deity, derives itself from Indo-Iranian solar deity Mithra, which cognates with Vedic solar deity Mitra.
- Mitra means "carrier of the sacred bond", nowadays used as "friend".
- Mitra was a very important Vedic Deity in Vedic times, it is not known to many people but Mitra is the 3rd most important deity in Vedas.
- Mitra is mentioned 435 in Rig Veda while Vishnu is just mentioned 3 times.
- Mitra is the first of the Adityas, the primordial solar deities.
- Mitra is understood as someone who keeps the balance, who is the protector of the cosmic law (Rta). While the one who pervades this universe is Mitra's Twin - Varuna.
Some people think that Mitra is a Zoroastrian deity. But actually it is pre-Zoroastrian. Zoroaster introduced monotheism, but had to accept older gods as well, so he venerated Mithra as well.
We know this is in their holy book - The Avesta, because it has Mihr Yasht passages dedicated to Mithra.(Mithra in later persian is Mihir, many Indians and Zoroastrians have this name).
But the concept of Mithra got a lot of popularity with Darius, Cyrus and Xerxes. Their kingdoms expanded so did the concept of Mithra. With Anatolia becoming the centre of Mithra worship. There it mingled with the cult of Dionysus. As we know,when Greece fell and Rome expanded, Roman pantheon started to grow, they started including every local God in their list, that is the time when Mithra took the spotlight in the European scheme of things. That was the birthplace of very much politicized/publicized Mithraism, which was one of the many cults that existed at that time in the Roman Empire.
Few years later, Rome fell, teachings of a new religion known as Christianity took remnants of Mithraism for some myth support. Christianity has taken a lot of elements from lot of cultures. And that is true for "every" single religion that exists in the world today.
Tetapi my dear readers' surprisingly, there was a linguistic difference between the indo aryans and vedic ganges groups in basic terminology between gods & demons. In Ancient Persia Ahura meant good diety and Daeva meant false gods. In India (amongst Hindus) asura means evil, while deva means god.
Is this mere coincidence or was there a clash of civilizations?
Atau, were we humans the creators of Gods and their powers/ names?😄
From the historical bacaan , it looks likely lah, kerana purely from an etymological perspective, the (probably) intuitive ancient meanings of these words should be roughly “a celestial” in the case of daywás and “a life-giver” in the case of hásuras.
As far as we can say, among Proto-Indo-Iranians, daywás was likely a basic and generic term simply meaning “god/deity”, applicable to all deities.
Hásuras was likely in contrast a more specific title for only some of the daywáses (“deities”), it referred particularly to the reigning, high-ranking or powerful ones among the daywáses.
To put it simply, hásurases were “the higher ones among daywáses”, also understandable as “lords among the gods”. All hásurases were also daywáses, but not all daywáses were hásurases (only the higher ones were).
Ini macam mau lawan tokeh aje,kan?..... we normally think of linguistic and cultural difference between north south east and west of current Indian continent but imagine an india that stretches all the way to Afghanistan in west and Burma in East.
The mind boggles!
The basic fact is that ancient Indo-Aryans and ancient Iranians descended from two subgroups of originally the same people nicknamed Proto-Indo-Iranians and both inherited numerous originally identical or closely related linguistic, religious, mythological, cultural and other features. More distantly, they also shared some relations with old European traditions via their common more ancient ethnolinguistic ancestors Proto-Indo-Europeans.
But the divergence between traditions was commonly increasing during time in certain respects. From such developments we ultimately got the Vedic and the Avestan textual materials which represent the only relatively complexly-surviving oldest Indo-Aryan and Iranic traditions, although not the sole Indo-Aryan nor Iranic traditions (or their interpretations) which existed in that time.
Both terms deva/daeva and asura/ahura had Proto-Indo-Iranic predecessors (generally reconstructed as daywás and hásuras) and even already Proto-Indo-European ancestors (generally reconstructed as deywós and h₂ń̥suros).
We therefore can, with a certain level of probability, try to reconstruct what was the usage of these words in pre-Vedic and pre-Avestan times. From the historical purely etymological perspective, the probably intuitive ancient meanings of these words should be roughly “a celestial” in the case of daywás and “a life-giver” in the case of hásuras.
The usage exactly like this we have attested among the related ancient Germanic peoples, especially among the Old Norse which left relatively many religio-mythological materials. Among the Old Norse, tívar (a cognate to devas/daevas) was typically used as one of the generic terms for any “deities”. In contrast, æsir (a cognate to asuras/ahuras) referred predominantly to a specific subgroup of tívar, particularly to members of the chief tribe of deities like Odin, Thor or Baldr, the lords of Asgard. (A little different, but related usage of the cognate to asura/ahura existed among Indo-European Hittites where ḫaššu evolved predominantly into the term for “a ruler/a king” in the sense of a sacral monarch who decides over the life and death of his subjects.)
A usage relatively similar to the prehistoric one is still implied also by some earliest Hindu verses of the Rigveda. For example, where one god, Varuna in this case, is identifed as Asura (Lord) who is a sovereign over other gods (devas) and over mortals):
“Thou over all, O Varuṇa, art Sovran,
be they devas, Asura! or be they mortals.
Grant unto us to see a hundred autumns
ours be the blest long lives of our forefathers.”
(Rigveda 2:27:10)
Or here where two gods are identified as “Asuras of devas”, i. e. Lords of the gods:
WITH hymns I call you, when the Sun hath risen, Mitra, and Varuṇa whose thoughts are holy, Whose Power Divine, supreme and everlasting, comes with good heed at each man's supplication. For they are Asuras of devas, the friendly make, both of you, our lands exceeding fruitful. May we obtain you, Varuṇa and Mitra, wherever Heaven and Earth and days may bless us.
(Rigveda 7:65:1–2)
For some reason, both Vedic and Avestan peoples deviated in their usage of the terms from the Proto-Indo-Iranic people, but each of them in a different way; the only thing which both their developments had in common was that both differentiated asuras/ahuras and devas/daevas into two separate groups in contrast to the earlier usage where asuras/ahuras were a subgroup of devas/daevas.
The Vedic tradition retained deva as the common term for a deity but asura, the former term for a higher deity, gradually became a term for “a disagreeable dark titan” who is not deva. This shift in usage was, as far as we can say, not associated with a clear demonization of any formerly worshipped Indo-Iranic holy beings, neither Indo-Aryan like Varuna or Mitra, who simply continued as devas, nor Iranic because no distinctly Zoroastrian holy beings like Mazda, Sraosha or any other are named among the later Hindu negative asuras.
The Avestan tradition on the other hand perceived the ahuras as a group of holy powerful life-forces, which so far quite corresponds to the traditional Proto-Indo-Iranic understanding, yet now seen as entirely separate from daevas who came to be understood as dark supernaturals of opposite characteristics. Apart of the demonization of the term daevas, also several Indo-Iranic deities themselves, like Indra or Nasatya, were demonized, so the change was unlike the Vedic one observably more than just semantic.
This is where cultural assimilation met ego, i believe. ....or maybe caste😄
The only thing which is quite obvious is that ultimately both Vedic and Avestan peoples deviated from the typical Proto-Indo-Iranic usage, each in their own way....
Tapi, when talking anout afghan and persia, saya pikir we must include Iran & Irag geographical areas as well in our readings.
First of all, ancient Persians and Iranians are amalgamation of different tribes. Avesta is the oldest text of Zoroastrianism.
It is well known that there are significant similarities in the words and grammar of Avestan and Vedic Sanskrit languages.
Lu tau tak, the avesta mentions Mithra, Varuna, Indra, Yama etc?
Jadi, about 11000 years ago civilizations and societies were advanced enough to not just borrow information from each other ( without a standard form of writing , i might add) & dwelve into aspects of psychology, architecture, maths and algebra, but they also knew how to measure solscitus and plan their planting seasons in tandem with moon phases...all of which reqquired hard mathematical propositions!
Mak ooi.....
- Lagi satu, the Gathas of Avesta mention Rudra along with Angra Mainyu.
- Vedic and post Vedic sources indicate that the Asuras also performed Yajnas.
- Gopatha Brahmana refers to Asuraveda of Pratichyas (westerners) and Asita Dhānvan, an Asura Rishi.
- Asita is also mentioned in Avesta. Shānkhāyana Shrautasutra mentions about Asuravidyā.
- Evidently, the Asuras compiled their own Veda for performing rituals.
- The same Asuraveda came to be known as Avesta. Unfortunately, a major portion of Avesta text is now lost.
Inilah sebab why men must not kill each other.....because the lost of knowledge gained can transcend umpteen generations before by some magic it picks up again in the brains of other future born humans....
So, to revert....many Vedic Rishis taught Vedic sciences to Asuras. Sukracharya, a famous Guru of Asuras was known as Kavi or Kava Us or Kaikaus in Zoroastrianism. Sukracharya was the son of Kavi. He was referred to as Ushanas Kāvya in Rigveda Anukramani.
The Asuras evolved archaic Avestan Sanskrit (Vedic Sanskrit of Asuras) based on their own grammar from Proto Sanskrit language. Thus, Vedic Sanskrit and archaic Avestan Sanskrit have been artificially evolved by the learned people.
The common people of Asura community spoke Proto Iranian that was naturally evolved from Proto Sanskrit.
It appears that the early Asuras had settled in Gandhara region on the banks of Helmand River. It is striking to observe that that present-day Hindus worship the devas as gods and the asuras as demons, while in present-day Zoroastrianism this dichotomy is reversed.
Rig Veda mentions that asuras were "older Gods". While Zoroaster in Gathas suggest them as true gods. The oldest sacred texts of both religions have a similar grammar, structure and Style, and they share same words and phrases.
Vedas also mention Tribes like Parasika, Parshu, Pahlavas, Saka etc., who resided west of the sapta sindhu region. Rig Veda mentions the victory of King Sudas over 10 different tribes which might have pushed the ancient Persians more westwards.
According to Vedic legends, Sarama Devashuni met Panis, a business clan of Asuras on the banks of Rasa River. Most probably, Rasa River was Helmand River of Afghanistan. King Bahlika (Kuru dynasty) and King Gandhara (Druhyu dynasty) conquered northern and southern Afghanistan respectively and established their kingdoms around 11100-11000 BCE.
The Asuras had no other option to migrate further westwards. They settled in Iran, Iraq,Syria and Southern Anatolia. The Pani Asuras (known as Phoenicians in the west) migrated up to Atlantic Ocean and a group of Panis might have founded the city of Atlantis which was submerged by sea around 10000 BCE.
When the monsoons weakened after 11000 BCE, many groups of Danavas had also migrated up to Greece and the Druhyus had migrated to Sumeria and Syria. It appears that the early Zoroastrianism of Asuras was extended from Iran to Southern Anatolia.
Seemingly, there were at least two Zoroasters.
The first Zarathustra also known as Asha Zarathustra or Zarathushtra Spitama was the author of Gathas and Yasna Haptanghaiti of Avesta. Ancient Greek sources also refer to two Zoroasters. Hermodorus (10th century BCE) believed that Zoroaster I lived 5000 years before the date of Trojan war (1842 BCE). Eudoxus also placed Zoroaster I 6000 years before the lifetime of Plato (11th century BCE).
Evidently, Zarathushtra I flourished around ~7100-7000 BCE and authored Gathas and Yasna Haptanghaiti of Avesta and recompiled Avesta. Zarathushtra I was like a Veda Vyasa of Zoroastrianism.
He transformed Zoroastrianism into Monotheism and founded the basic tenets of Zoroastrian philosophy.
This is how an Asuraveda transformed into Avesta and Zoroastrianism around 7000 BCE. Interestingly, Zoroastrianism accepted the Indian concept of Mahayuga of 12000 years that evolved after the Ramayana era!
Zoroastrianism followed equal length of four Yugas (3000 years of each Yuga) Instead of the differential duration (4:3:2:1) of four Yugas.
The Danavas of the post Vedic era were the worshippers of Vedic devatas like Mitra, Varuna, etc. The common people from Afghanistan to East Europe prominently worshipped God Mithra. Gradually, Mithra became synonymous to Surya (Sun). Zarathushtra I’s monotheism also influenced the philosophy of the Mithra god worshippers of East Europe.
Thus, The Mithraism was born in East Europe and became a popular religion before the birth of Christianity. The Mithraism had been meticulously destroyed and wiped out by the Christian faith patronized by the authoritarian kings.
Again, gua pikir religions fluorishes because the kings popularise the belief system to control the population...
Probably, many Indian families of Baluchistan and Gandhara had also migrated to Sumeria, Babylon, Egypt around 11000 BCE.
Puranas indicates that the sons of Prachetas, a descendant of the Druhyu dynasty migrated to west and became the kings of Mleccha countries.
Sumerians and Egyptians also followed the Yuga of 432000 years.
A group of Babylonians came under the influence of Zoroastrianism who evolved the philosophy of Judaism.
The Yavanas and Bactrians of northern Afghanistan and Turkmenistan learnt the Surya Siddhanta of Mayasura (6778 BCE) and evolved the Yavana Siddhanta under the influence of Surya Siddhanta.
Many families of Yavanas living in Bactria and Gandhara had migrated to Greece and western Anatolia around 6500-5000 BCE and came to be known “Ionians” and “Javans”.
Seemingly, Zoroastrianism was declined around 3000-1300 BCE due to the political rise of Egypt, Sumeria-Babylonia and Assyria.
Persia was under the rule of Sumerians and Babylonians around 3000-1700 BCE. The rising Buddhism also posed a great challenge to Zoroastrianism around 1800-1300 BCE. The later Kayanian dynasty was reigning over Persia around 1300 BCE.
Zoroaster II was born in Magha country (North Bactria, North Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan) around 1307 BCE and revived Zoroastrianism. Since Magha was the birthplace of Zoroaster II, Zoroastrianism also came to be known as Maghism. Maghism or Later Zoroastrianism accepted the solar calendar and started celebrating Navroj.
Kayanian king Gustaspa declared Zoroastrianism as the state religion. Acheamenids and Sasanians promoted Zoroastrianism. Unfortunately, the Zoroastrians of Iran and Turkmenistan had no other option to surrender to the Islamic invaders.
Pheew...penat ready...kita stop sini dulu ye...